Divorce Dilemmas: Key Mistakes Women Must Avoid
Divorce is a complicated and emotionally fraught decision that merits careful consideration, particularly for women who face unique challenges during this tumultuous period. In this discussion, we engage with Lisa Zeiderman, a highly esteemed matrimonial and family law attorney from Miller Zeiderman with Miller Zeiderman in New York, who is dedicated to empowering women to navigate the complexities of divorce. She authors a popular blog in Psychology Today about legal matters. She is regularly published in Financial Advisor Magazine and the New York Law Journal. Lisa details the critical mistakes women often make prior to filing, emphasizing the paramount importance of financial awareness and the necessity of selecting a competent attorney who will advocate vigorously on their behalf. She outlines key mistakes to avoid and offers tips for women, particularly entrepreneurs. Tune into this episode with Shelley Johnson and Kathy Tuccaro to ensure your future before and after a divorce.
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Transcript
This is Women Road warriors with Shelly Johnson and Kathy Tucaro.
Speaker A:From the corporate office to the cab of a truck, they're here to inspire and empower women in all professions.
Speaker A:So gear down, sit back and enjoy.
Speaker A:Welcome.
Speaker A:We're an award winning show dinner dedicated to empowering women in every profession through inspiring stories and expert insights.
Speaker A:No topics off limits.
Speaker A:On our show, we power women on the road to success with expert and celebrity interviews and information you need.
Speaker A:I'm Shelly.
Speaker B:And I'm Kathy.
Speaker A:Divorce is not a decision that's made quickly.
Speaker A:It can be beyond difficult.
Speaker A:It's emotionally charged, painful and, and pits life partners against each other with issues of child custody and financial fights.
Speaker A:This is where women need to get the best advice possible to make sure that they have the best outcomes.
Speaker A:Lisa Zeiderman is a matrimonial and family law attorney with Miller Zeiterman in New York.
Speaker A:She's an official member of the Forbes Business Council.
Speaker A:She helps her clients tackle the complex financial issues the divorce brings.
Speaker A:Lisa is a certified financial divorce analyst and certified financial litigator.
Speaker A:She authors a popular blog in Psychology Today about legal matters.
Speaker A:Lisa wants women to know that there are key points to consider during a divorce to make sound financial decisions that will serve them well in the future.
Speaker A:She also has specific advice for female entrepreneurs about the challenges they face during a divorce.
Speaker A:Lisa's here to talk about what women need to consider.
Speaker A:Welcome, Lisa.
Speaker A:Thank you for being on the show.
Speaker B:Thanks so much, Shelley and Kathy for having me.
Speaker A:Oh, this is going to be a wonderful discussion.
Speaker A:I mean, very, very informative for our listeners.
Speaker A:You know, I know the field of law can be challenging, but I imagine you've got an especially challenging task with divorce when it's so emotionally charged, you end up being a counselor along with being an advisor, don't you?
Speaker B:Well, we try not to be the counselor.
Speaker B:We, we really, you know, this is all high stakes, complex litigation that we are involved in.
Speaker B:And we really try to make sure that our client has an entire team that they are working with, including us obviously, as their counsel.
Speaker B:And then hopefully they have a therapist that they can work with.
Speaker B:And then sometimes we add on other people such as accounting firms and, you know, forensic analysts.
Speaker B:I'm going to say that again, forensic analysts who can deal with some of the financial matters and sometimes even actually a court may appoint a forensic psychologist or a forensic psychiatrist to analyze custody cases.
Speaker B:So we really try not to be the therapist.
Speaker B:Obviously, people are super stressed and they come to us and part of what we're listening to is their Stress.
Speaker B:But they need qualified people who can actually deal with that on an everyday matter.
Speaker A:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker A:You have a wealth of knowledge here.
Speaker A:You talk about the five mistakes that people often make before asking for a divorce.
Speaker A:What are those?
Speaker B:So I think that the first thing is people wait too long.
Speaker B:So I'm going to say that they wait until things are really so bad that they need to move out because they have been abused or move out because they are emotionally abused or their children are witnessing abuse, or they need to go get an order of protection so that the other person can actually be forced to leave.
Speaker B:So I would say that is probably mistake number one is that they wait too long and they think that they're sometimes waiting for the good of their children.
Speaker B:But I'm also going to say that usually their children are not surprised that it that the marriage has long been over because they may have been, unfortunately, arguing in front of their children.
Speaker B:I would say mistake number two is that they don't know much about their finances, particularly women.
Speaker B:They come to us and very often.
Speaker B:And although I hate to be gender specific, it usually does happen mostly with women where they just have a lack of clarity and a lack of information about their financial situation.
Speaker B:So they don't necessarily know what the incomes are for their spouse or their partner.
Speaker B:They may not know what the assets actually are.
Speaker B:And maybe they didn't ask, or maybe their partner refused to share the information when they did ask.
Speaker B:I think that's.
Speaker B:That's certainly number two in terms of mistakes.
Speaker B:I think that the other mistake is that they may badmouth or disparage or ridicule the other parent in front of their children.
Speaker B:And that is a huge mistake, no matter what, because making sure that your child is actually loving and that you're able to foster a relationship with your child and the other parent is probably one of the most important things that you can do in terms of custody situations.
Speaker B:And then I would say number four may be that they have counted on certain assets, such as a home, that they are going to absolutely want to keep at home, and that they are steadfast in that.
Speaker B:But that may not be always the right situation for them.
Speaker B:There may be capital gains issues.
Speaker B:There may be other issues as to why maybe that's not the perfect idea.
Speaker B:And then I'm going to say number five is, and it goes back to the financial issues, is that they have distanced themselves from conversations with both their accountant, meaning the accountant that they share with their spouse, and maybe the financial advisor that actually advises the family.
Speaker A:Okay, these are all really good points to consider, for sure.
Speaker A:And I think when you're in the the throes of considering a divorce and everything is so chaotic, it's probably hard for clients to focus on that kind of thing.
Speaker A:I mean, that that's the last thing they really think about, isn't really is.
Speaker B:So when you are in the throes of a difficult situation, last thing that you're thinking about is clarity, or the last manner in which you're thinking is clear.
Speaker B:Everything is coming at you, and you're just trying to get through the day.
Speaker B:And so it's really important that you meet with an attorney, meet with your therapist, do all the things that are actually going to make sure that you are looking at this down the road and making a plan for yourself.
Speaker A:You know, I think finding the right divorce lawyer is also a consideration.
Speaker A:I see you have five questions that someone should ask a divorce lawyer when you interview him or her.
Speaker A:I don't think a lot of people think about interviewing an attorney.
Speaker A:What are those five questions?
Speaker B:So in terms of questions that you should be asking from your attorney is you certainly should ask whether they are equipped to take your case.
Speaker B:You need to be asking them what their qualifications are.
Speaker B:If they actually are open to both negotiation and to litigation.
Speaker B:You should be asking if they've actually had a case such as your own.
Speaker B:For example, if you have a child who is neurodiverse, have they handled cases with neurodiverse children?
Speaker B:If you have a case with a situation where the child has adhd, are they familiar with that type of situation?
Speaker B:If you have financial situations that, for example, a spouse that may have a business, have they been involved in valuing a business, hiring a forensic accountant, understanding what that means, do they know how to read a tax return?
Speaker B:Do they know how to read a complex tax return?
Speaker B:Are they ready and willing to deal with a spouse that is difficult, that may be a narcissist?
Speaker B:These are all the types of questions that you certainly want to ask them.
Speaker B:You also want to ask them what their billing rate is.
Speaker B:You want to ask them how much they think that this is actually going to cost down the road.
Speaker B:And although they don't have a crystal ball, they should be able to give you some sort of an estimate.
Speaker B:What would it take to go through depositions?
Speaker B:Are they prepared to do depositions?
Speaker B:What's their game plan for your case?
Speaker B:Should you be filing now or waiting?
Speaker B:These are all questions that you want to ask this attorney that you're interviewing, and you need to come out of the meeting with your attorney feeling that this is somebody who's going to have your back, that's the most important thing.
Speaker A:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker A:And I think sometimes people maybe hire an attorney that isn't as qualified and they don't feel like they have their back and you really need that.
Speaker A:I mean, that's something that's going to help you move forward.
Speaker A:You have to have at least the confidence in the counsel.
Speaker A:You're getting 100% correct.
Speaker B:You must feel really good about this relationship, because other than the relationship that you have with your spouse and your children, this might be the most important relationship that you actually have with someone.
Speaker B:And so it's very important that you feel a connection with that person.
Speaker A:I see you also talk about financial abuse and there are signs that somebody needs to look for.
Speaker A:As you were saying, that sometimes partners are not always so forthright in terms of the finances, or perhaps the other partner is just left out of that.
Speaker A:They don't see the big picture.
Speaker A:Does that happen a lot?
Speaker A:Financial abuse and what should somebody look for?
Speaker B:So financial abuse is very common.
Speaker B:I always say it is the gateway for the most part, to emotional and physical abuse.
Speaker B:Because if you are financially abused, you also don't have control of probably one of the most important features in your life, which is the finances.
Speaker B:And if you don't have control of the finances, you don't know how to actually get out of the situation.
Speaker B:And you don't have the capacity to do that.
Speaker B:You need to have the capacity to hire an attorney to.
Speaker B:You need to have the money and the funds to actually get the therapists that you need.
Speaker B:You need to have access to funds.
Speaker B:And you actually also need to understand what the income and the assets and liabilities are.
Speaker B:Now, what are some things that you look for in terms of financial abuse?
Speaker B:So one thing is, do you get to see the tax returns or are you literally just told to sign a piece of paper?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Are you actually given the tax returns ahead of time and given an opportunity to review them?
Speaker B:Speak to the accountant.
Speaker B:Remember at the beginning I had said one of the things that you need to be able to do is to actually meet with an accountant.
Speaker B:Don't distance yourself from that particular ability to meet with an accountant.
Speaker B:Ask the accountant questions.
Speaker B:Another sign of financial abuse is that you not only don't have access to receive the funds from the account to actually go and use your ATM for an account or have a credit card or.
Speaker B:Or any of those things, you don't know what the passwords are because you're not being given Access.
Speaker B:So you have no idea what the marital assets are.
Speaker B:You have no idea what the liabilities are.
Speaker B:Documents such as credit card statements, bank statements, they are either just getting emailed to your spouse or they are being sent to an address other than the marital residence, perhaps your spouse's business address, perhaps a relative of your spouse.
Speaker B:That would also be a sign of.
Speaker B:Of financial abuse.
Speaker B:Although I will say that sometimes people keep their money separate from each other.
Speaker B:So it's not, it's gotta be a totality of the circumstances that you're looking at.
Speaker B:Are your credit cards being cut?
Speaker B:Do you have access to a credit card?
Speaker B:Are the limits being cut on them periodically or very often and you don't feel like you're outspending.
Speaker B:What a budget that you and your spouse had perhaps agreed upon, but yet the limits are being cut constantly until perhaps you have no limit at all, meaning you have no access to a credit card at all.
Speaker B:Not that it's limitless, but that you are limited in the fact that you don't even have access to a credit card.
Speaker B:Perhaps you literally are being told that the wages that you earn.
Speaker B:The wages that you earn, it's important to understand this, are need to be wired into an account that is only controlled by your spouse.
Speaker B:So as opposed to making sure that the wages you earn may be in a joint account or may be wired to an account that you have control of, that that's not happening because your spouse has absolutely directed you to and you are fearful of not following the direction that those wages be wired to an account that only your spouse controls.
Speaker B:I think the last, that last piece is one of the most important pieces because that actually is defining not only for.
Speaker B:For people who work and women who work particularly, but also for obviously people who are literally the breadwinner for the family.
Speaker B:And so sometimes we actually see the breadwinner for the family come to us and they have been financially abused because they are literally put on an allowance by their spouse.
Speaker B:The money gets wired into the accounts that is controlled by the spouse, and they have no access to it.
Speaker A:This is the 21st century.
Speaker A:It is shocking.
Speaker A:This still goes on.
Speaker B:It.
Speaker B:It is shocking, and yet not so much, right?
Speaker B:Because there is a level of a desire to keep the peace, a level of fear sometimes that people feel when they're in a relationship.
Speaker B:And as I said, it's kind of the gateway to emotional and physical abuse.
Speaker B:And so along with financial abuse, you might also be hearing very demeaning and degrading abusive words that are directed to you and so you start to think less of yourself.
Speaker B:You also want to prevent any of these, you know, constant barrages, these attacks on you.
Speaker B:And so you are just following along.
Speaker B:You know, I can speak from very many instances and experiences from what you're just talking about.
Speaker B:And I remember I was pregnant with my daughter and my ex husband, I had to ask him for $5 to go get milk and eggs for whatever, because I was.
Speaker B:I mean, I wasn't working.
Speaker B:And the look on his face, well, what do you need that for?
Speaker B:And it was so degrading for me to.
Speaker B:He'd even have to ask and then explain why I need the $5 that I had my daughter in December.
Speaker B:By February, I was working.
Speaker B:And I'm like, you are not having access to this paycheck.
Speaker A:Good for you.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:But that takes a lot of guts sometimes.
Speaker B:And a lot of people don't have that ability to say those words.
Speaker B:And that's the problem.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Lisa, do you run into this a lot?
Speaker A:There's financial abuse like that?
Speaker B:Yes, we do.
Speaker B:We see this in a great many cases.
Speaker B:And it's so striking, of course, when we see it at all, but it's very striking when we see it for the breadwinner.
Speaker B:And to both of your points, it is a time when you think that this isn't going to happen anymore, Right?
Speaker B:That we're in this time period when you think women have so many rights and women are not going to be abused like this and it's not going to happen.
Speaker B:But it does.
Speaker B:It happens every day.
Speaker B:And, you know, many people come to us who are married 25, 30 years and they have not been given access to the accounts.
Speaker B:They have no idea what their finances are.
Speaker B:They have no idea what the income that their spouse earns is.
Speaker B:They may not know if there's a business, what is actually the profitability of the business each year.
Speaker B:They are just shut out.
Speaker B:And as I said, you know, it's interesting because the other side of this is that we are doing more and more prenups where younger people are wanting to keep their money segregated from each other.
Speaker B:They.
Speaker B:They want to have their own accounts.
Speaker B:They want to keep their.
Speaker B:Their money separate, their income separate.
Speaker B:And so there is that, that other side of this.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And that's why I was very careful when I said to you that the fact that people have separate accounts, that's not in itself financial abuse.
Speaker B:It's all the things that go with the financial abuse that are important to note.
Speaker B:And so it's a totality of what you're looking at.
Speaker B:You won't show somebody the tax return.
Speaker B:You won't, you know, even if they're signing it and it's a joint return, they literally get it and they're told, just sign here.
Speaker B:And the page is flipped and it's just sign here.
Speaker B:And well, I want to look at it.
Speaker B:And the answer is no.
Speaker B:You just need to sign.
Speaker B:You don't need to know anything.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:Stay tuned for more of Women Road warriors coming up.
Speaker C:Dean Michael, the tax doctor here.
Speaker C:I have one question for you.
Speaker C:Do you want to stop worrying about the irs?
Speaker C:If the answer is yes, then look no further.
Speaker C:I've been around for years.
Speaker C:I've helped countless people across the country, and my success rate speaks for itself.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker C:So now you know where to find good, honest help with your tax problems.
Speaker C:What are you waiting for?
Speaker C: -: Speaker A:Industry Movement Trucking Moves America Forward is telling the story of the industry.
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Speaker A:Learn more@truckingmovesamerica.com welcome back to Women Road warriors with Shelly Johnson at Kathy Takaro.
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Speaker A:If you're just joining us, we're diving into one of the toughest and most emotional decisions anyone can face.
Speaker A:Divorce.
Speaker A:It's rarely a quick choice.
Speaker A:It's painful, often messy, and filled with questions about kids, money and the future.
Speaker A:But here's the thing.
Speaker A:Too many women head into it unprepared.
Speaker A:They wait too long.
Speaker A:They don't fully understand their financial picture, and sometimes they make the mistake of speaking negatively about their spouse in front of the kids.
Speaker A:That's a no go.
Speaker A:Lisa Zeiterman says the key is knowing what to avoid before you even file.
Speaker A:She's a top matrimonial and family law attorney with Miller Zeideman in New York, a certified financial divorce analyst and litigator, and a go to voice on the topic in Psychology Today.
Speaker A:She's also a member of the Forbes Business Council.
Speaker A:Lisa works with women, especially business owners, to help them navigate the legal and financial landmines of divorce.
Speaker A:She's here to break down the five most common mistakes and what you can do to protect yourself and your future.
Speaker A:LISA in our last segment, we were talking about different types of abuse, especially financial abuse.
Speaker A:You know, you hear stories of women who have stayed in marriages like this, and they actually don't get any kind of freedom because it's obviously, it's an abusive situation until the spouse dies.
Speaker A:All of a sudden they have that freedom, but then they're not prepared to deal with the finances because they never have.
Speaker A:So that can be disastrous as well.
Speaker B:Without a doubt.
Speaker B:That is another reason why you need to have the information.
Speaker B:And you may actually not even know whether you are the beneficiary of certain accounts.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And you may not even know what your rights are if your spouse dies.
Speaker B:You may not know if there's life insurance for your spouse, and maybe there's sufficient assets that there doesn't need to be life insurance, but you kind of need to know these things.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:So it's really important that if, if you and your spouse don't have someone who you're consulting with, a financial advisor that you're consulting with that you start to sit down and you have these conversations.
Speaker B:And if these conversations are something that you feel like you can't have because you're too afraid, well, that's a problem right there.
Speaker A:I'm kind of curious, in terms of prenups, are you seeing a lot more of this?
Speaker A:Because I, I know that there are two groups of thought that a prenup is basically pitting the potential spouses against each other because they don't trust each other.
Speaker A:And then there are people who say, well, it's a good idea because you want to protect everything you've worked for.
Speaker A:It shouldn't be part of the matrimonial estate.
Speaker A:Are you seeing a lot more of this.
Speaker B:So we are doing a huge amount of prenups right now.
Speaker B:We are drafting a huge amount of prenups.
Speaker B:And we are big believers in prenups.
Speaker B:I certainly am.
Speaker B:I think that, first of all, it provides transparency before people get married as to what the assets are.
Speaker B:It also provides transparency as to what the income is.
Speaker B:So at least you have a baseline that you probably wouldn't have had if you didn't have the prenup.
Speaker B:It also makes people start to talk about finances, which is, I think, a very healthy thing to do.
Speaker B:And yes, you're right that there is this idea, which I'm not a real believer in, that it somehow pits people against each other.
Speaker B:I think that it actually sets a roadmap for people so that they know what they're actually going to be looking at years down the road if this A, doesn't work, or B, there is, to your point, a death.
Speaker B:And so prenups not only deal with what's going to happen, you know, during your lifetime in the event that there's a divorce, they also deal with the issue of what happens in the event of a death.
Speaker B:For example, you may be marrying somebody who has a great deal of wealth, but perhaps it's inherited wealth, and that person may have no intention of sharing that inherited wealth, and nor does that person have to share that inherited wealth.
Speaker B:And so it's really important that you know where you stand, because you may have this wonderful lifestyle during the marriage, and then at the end of the marriage, you find out that the rest of it is inherited and you're only getting a very small portion of it, because perhaps they are going to do what is under the law, give you what's called your elective share, which is the third of the estate there.
Speaker B:Also, the.
Speaker B:The prenup also allows you to provide for situations where there is a lot of inherited wealth.
Speaker B:And that inherited wealth may not or should not pass to your spouse.
Speaker B:And the reason being that your spouse may get remarried at some point in the event of your death, and then that inherited wealth goes to a third party who you don't even know.
Speaker B:And so you might want to protect your premarital wealth, you may want to protect your inherited wealth, you may want to protect your income.
Speaker B:All of this is fine as long as you're transparent about it, because then there's no discussion about, well, I didn't know, I didn't plan, I didn't work because I thought I was being taken care of.
Speaker B:That's all not okay.
Speaker B:It's much better to Lay your cards on the table early on and deal with it up front.
Speaker A:You need to know what you're dealing with for sure.
Speaker A:Yeah, a lack of knowledge is very dangerous.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker A:Now you have considerations too for women who are in business, entrepreneurs, they have a special set of circumstances too, don't they, in terms of a divorce?
Speaker B:So women who are in business, as anyone else who's in business and going through a divorce, they're going to have their business valued.
Speaker B:And it's super important to understand that if you are building your business during the marriage, that is a marital asset that is going to be subject in New York to equitable distribution.
Speaker B:And what I mean by that is that usually there is a valuation of the business and it is as of a certain date, usually the date of the commencement of the action for divorce, but sometimes later.
Speaker B:And bottom line is there's a number put on it and then there's a percentage that is allocated essentially that you're going to have to pay a lump sum or over time, a certain percentage to your spouse.
Speaker B:And that lump sum or that percentage depends upon what contributions, direct or indirect, your spouse has made to you growing your business during the marriage.
Speaker B:So perhaps your spouse has been a stay at home parent and that has allowed you to go to your business every day and not have to worry about childcare or worry about who's going to be making the dinners or any of those kinds of things.
Speaker B:They show up at the parent teacher conferences, they show up at the doctor's appointments, they allow you to focus on your business.
Speaker B:That is a contribution.
Speaker B:Perhaps you're able to travel and meet with clients or other people that are important to your business.
Speaker B:Again, a contribution, it's an indirect contribution.
Speaker B:If your spouse works in the business, that is a much more direct contribution and the percentage will likely be increased because of that work in the business.
Speaker B:So it is important to understand that there will be some sort of a payout, usually for your business asset.
Speaker B:Perhaps you started your business before the marriage, which is also important and the business has appreciated during the marriage.
Speaker B:Well, that appreciation will be subject to equitable distribution.
Speaker B:So there will be some sort of evaluation done for the business as of the date of the marriage, it'll go back in time and there will be a different valuation done for the calculation of the appreciation that occurred during the marriage.
Speaker B:And again, there will be some sort of percentage tied to that appreciation for the non titled spouse, meaning the person who does not own the business.
Speaker A:So there are a lot of considerations here.
Speaker A:And if things are correctly, your business could end up upside down or heavily in debt just to pay whatever you're supposed to pay to the other spouse.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Because if your business is your biggest asset, if you think about it, if your business is your biggest asset and you don't have a lot of liquidity in other assets, you really could be upside down here.
Speaker B:Because.
Speaker B:And look, people who have that situation are very, very frightened of that situation because essentially they feel that they are only getting the thing that makes them go to their business every day and earn money to pay, you know, for, for support for their spouse because they are paying out for the business that they have to go to to support the other spouse.
Speaker B:And there is maybe no other liquidity from any other place.
Speaker B:So you really do need to plan all of this out.
Speaker B:And again, I stress this idea of a prenup is so helpful because it can actually keep and maintain your business for yourself.
Speaker A:So then it wouldn't be considered the matrimonial estate, correct?
Speaker B:That's correct.
Speaker B:It will be considered your separate property if the prenup sets forth that your business is your separate property.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Stay tuned for more of Women Road warriors coming up.
Speaker C:Dean Michael, the tax doctor here.
Speaker C:I have one question for you.
Speaker C:Do you want to stop worrying about the irs?
Speaker C:If the answer is yes, then look no further.
Speaker C:I've been around for years.
Speaker C:I've helped countless people across the country, and my success rate speaks for itself.
Speaker C:So now you know where to find good, honest help with your tax problems.
Speaker C:What are you waiting for?
Speaker C: -: Speaker A:Industry Movement Trucking Moves America Forward is telling the story of the industry.
Speaker A:Our safety champions, the women of trucking, independent contractors, the next generation of truckers, and more.
Speaker A:Help us promote the best of our industry.
Speaker A:Share your story and what you love about trucking.
Speaker A:Share images of a moment you're proud of and join us on social media.
Speaker A:Learn more@truckingmovesamerica.com welcome back to Women Road warriors with Shelly Johnson and Kevin.
Speaker A:If you're a woman considering divorce, there's a lot to think about before you take that first step.
Speaker A:It's emotional complex and can involve serious financial and custody battles.
Speaker A:Too many women wait too long, don't fully understand their finances or make the mistake of criticizing the other parent in front of the kids.
Speaker A:And here's something Critical your attorney matters.
Speaker A:Interview them.
Speaker A:Ask them about their game plan and experience.
Speaker A:You need to know that person has your back.
Speaker A:Because if you can't trust your attorney, who can you trust?
Speaker A:Lisa Zeiderman, a top matrimonial and family law attorney and certified financial divorce analyst with Miller Zeiderman in New York, helps women, especially business owners, avoid costly mistakes and make smart, informed decisions.
Speaker A:She's nationally published in major trade publications and legal journals and is sharing what you need to know.
Speaker A:In our previous segment, we were discussing a lot of the financial considerations you have to think about not only in divorce, but in matrimony.
Speaker A:I could see where this could get really messy.
Speaker A:And I was gonna say we're really ugly.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker A:And especially if you started a business, there's some emotional attachment to that, too.
Speaker A:I mean, you feel like you're being attacked by this life partner when they're trying to get a chunk of that.
Speaker B:Yes, that.
Speaker B:That is a hundred percent true.
Speaker B:You do feel like you're being attacked.
Speaker B:And I think that the important thing to understand is, in New York, that marriage is a financial partnership.
Speaker B:So while, you know, you.
Speaker B:You asked me earlier about this idea of prenups and that people are being pitted against each other.
Speaker B:Well, they're not really being pitted against each other.
Speaker B:The reality of getting married, the difference between getting married and just living together is the fact that you are now, under New York law, entering into a financial partnership.
Speaker B:And I think people need to understand that because there are certain rules and laws that go along with that entry into a financial relationship, just like any other relationship.
Speaker B:So, yes, it is filled with love and all of those warm and fuzzy things, but the reality is that there are laws protect each of you.
Speaker B:And so you need to make sure that you have considered those laws and considered what the ramifications are in terms of marriage and your financial situation.
Speaker A:And this can vary from state to state, correct?
Speaker B:Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker B:Like, for example, California is a community property state.
Speaker B:It's very different than New York.
Speaker B:New York is an equitable distribution state where we look at what each party's contribution, either direct or indirect, is.
Speaker B:California is much more, I think, straightforward in terms of what the expectation is and that most things are divided on a 50, 50 type of basis.
Speaker B:So they're very different from each other.
Speaker A:So somebody considering divorce, they need to do a little bit of homework on some of this, shouldn't they?
Speaker A:And ideally maybe do their homework before they get married?
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:They should be doing their homework before they get married.
Speaker B:Already planning the divorce before you say I do.
Speaker B:Well, no, you know, you're planning, okay, for, you're, you're really planning for what will happen through your lifetime.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And then after your death.
Speaker B:And it really can protect both people.
Speaker B:And I really mean this.
Speaker B:I, I don't think if you look at a prenup as something that is bad for one or, and good for the other.
Speaker B:Well, that's not really the way that I look at that.
Speaker B:That I look at it as this is your place and your time to negotiate it.
Speaker B:It's also your place and your time to understand what you need to do for yourself during the marriage.
Speaker B:So, for example, the stay at home mom who comes to me, who 25 or 30 years after they've been a stay at home mom, and Maybe they get 50% of the assets because there's no prenup.
Speaker B:But what happens to them in terms of support?
Speaker B:Their husband may be making a, a lot of money, I mean, sometimes millions.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And they have been at a stay at home.
Speaker B:And what are they going to earn?
Speaker B:Well, they're not going to earn anywhere near likely after 25 or 30 years of being outside of a workforce, anywhere near their spouse, because they have never been on that trajectory in terms of employment.
Speaker B:And wouldn't it have been better for those women to know what was ahead of them, that they're not going to be taken care of for the rest of their lives, that they needed to build a career, that perhaps staying at home, while very fulfilling in a lot of ways, didn't protect them?
Speaker B:And so wouldn't it have been better for them to know that up front than to find it out in a courtroom years and years later that, oh, you know, after a 30 year marriage, maybe I'm only getting, you know, 10 years of maintenance, spousal support.
Speaker B:Maybe I'm not getting anywhere near what my lifestyle was.
Speaker B:Is that the time that they should find this out?
Speaker B:No, it's not.
Speaker B:Oh, no, not at all yet.
Speaker A:Oh, that's a recipe for disaster.
Speaker A:And that's how people end up in, in terrible situations.
Speaker A:You know, they get 10 years of worth of support.
Speaker A:What do they do with the rest of their lives?
Speaker A:And can they start over?
Speaker A:Depending on how long they've been in the marriage, they're literally having to figure out, okay, what do I do with the rest of my life?
Speaker A:What do I want to be when I grow up?
Speaker A:What kind of career could I start?
Speaker A:I mean, wow, that's a tough one.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker A:Now you have a financial checklist that you recommend when somebody's Looking into divorce, what are some of the things that people should consider so they need to look at?
Speaker B:They need to actually collect as many financial documents as they can, right?
Speaker B:So last five years of tax returns, any documentation in terms of their separate property claims.
Speaker B:So, for example, you came into the marriage with a certain amount of assets.
Speaker B:You should actually go back and see if you can trace and track those assets.
Speaker B:Account statements, copies of all the account statements that you can get your hands onto, whether it be bank accounts, investment accounts, retirement accounts, for both you and your spouse.
Speaker B:All of those are really important.
Speaker B:Credit card statements, any credit card statements that you can find.
Speaker B:You know, years ago, I had a client, and I always talk about her.
Speaker B:She literally would hand us these little breadcrumbs.
Speaker B:They would be in these little ripped pieces of paper because she would pull them out of the garbage, literally out of the garbage.
Speaker B:And they were clues as to where assets were.
Speaker B:And we found millions of dollars worth of assets because she actually saved these little pieces of paper with account numbers or phone numbers or, you know, clues as to who and where monies were located.
Speaker B:And when we went to do the discovery, I'll never forget, actually I was doing a deposition of the husband, and I said something like, well, there's nothing on your net worth statement.
Speaker B:You've basically put nothing on your net worth statement to tell us what your finances are.
Speaker B:It's completely blank.
Speaker B:And I said, how are we to know what your finances are?
Speaker B:And he said something like, well, you'll just do what you're doing.
Speaker B:You'll keep subpoenaing and looking.
Speaker B:And that is what we had to do during the entire case.
Speaker B:Now, interestingly, because he wouldn't turn over information, there was a negative inference actually posed on him by the court.
Speaker B:And so she ended up getting much more of the assets that we did find, which is the correct thing to do.
Speaker B:But I will tell you that you should certainly, for your meeting with an attorney, find as much as you can in terms of these financial statements.
Speaker B:Even if it's one statement that you happen to find for an American Express account, it's the start of something, because somebody paid American Express and that had an account that was paid, that it was paid from.
Speaker B:And that's the beginning of the trail.
Speaker B:Financial statements.
Speaker B:If your spouse is giving financial statements to banks, that's important.
Speaker B:If you've applied for a mortgage, those financial statements are really important because they actually will tell us actually how much an asset your spouse believes that they have.
Speaker A:It's important.
Speaker A:What I'm hearing here, for women to really be informed when they're in a marriage.
Speaker A:Not knowing the financial data, that's like not knowing if you have a roof over your house that's got a leak.
Speaker A:I mean, it's just not sustainable.
Speaker A:And of course, people are going to do what they're going to do.
Speaker A:But would you say that women, when they're in a marriage, should really insist on the transparency?
Speaker B:Yes, I think everybody should be insisting on the transparency.
Speaker B:Unless your deal is different.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:Unless your deal is different.
Speaker B:I think everybody should be insisting on transparency.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So when I say that unless you have a prenup that says everything he earns, he earns, everything she earns, she earns, everything they earn, they earn.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:The bottom line is, is that you really want to insist on transparency if that is your deal.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And I think everybody has their own relationship.
Speaker B:Look, there are also situations where we see in marriages that somebody is utilizing the joint account all the time, and yet they have their own separate account.
Speaker B:Everything is joint except for the own.
Speaker B:Their own separate account that they have decided that they're keeping.
Speaker B:So one spouse is putting everything into the joint accounts, everything into accounts that are for the family, and one spouse is basically got their own slush fund.
Speaker B:Well, you know, the person with the slush fund really can't be complaining that they don't know everything, because perhaps they're creating that slush fund, which is creating a problem.
Speaker B:So it depends on what your marriage is about.
Speaker B:If your marriage is about transparency, then that's what everybody should be is transparent.
Speaker B:If your marriage is about, you know, keeping your assets separate, and that is what you have determined is the right thing for your family, that's great, but frankly, it should be codified in a document.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:And when I say a document, either a prenup or a postnup, that makes sense.
Speaker A:Everybody knows what's going on.
Speaker A:It only makes sense if you have a spouse who wants to control and you have an abusive spouse, you can see where the transparency would be seriously lacking.
Speaker A:Unfortunately, that's exactly right.
Speaker B:And that is a reason perhaps, to start to have a consultation with a divorce attorney.
Speaker A:So what do you do if somebody.
Speaker A:If you want a prenup and the person you want to marry doesn't, is that kind of a red flag to say, well, maybe this shouldn't go through?
Speaker B:Yeah, I think that you have to decide for yourself whether that's a red flag.
Speaker B:You know, there are certainly plenty of people who come to us who have decided that no matter what, they are going to have that prenup and they will not get married without that prenup because there is just too much in terms of either premarital or inherited property that they are willing to risk.
Speaker B:And the fact is that divorce is frequent and common, and you need to be open to signing a prenuptial agreement.
Speaker B:And I'm going to also say to the people who are asking that the prenuptial agreement be signed, that is not something that you present, you know, a week before the marriage is supposed to actually occur.
Speaker B:That is something that should be spoken about very early on, perhaps before the engagement, even that, you know, if.
Speaker B:If and when we get married, or if we.
Speaker B:If I ever get married, I certainly will want a prenup so that it's not a shocker to somebody.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:It doesn't have to be.
Speaker B:If we get married.
Speaker B:It could be just, you know, I've always thought about, if I get married, I'm going to actually have a prenuptial agreement.
Speaker B:What are your thoughts on a prenuptial agreement?
Speaker B:So that, you know, going in, whether this is a consideration for somebody or whether they're going to say, you know, you want to.
Speaker B:If.
Speaker B:If you want a prenup, I'm not getting married.
Speaker B:Well, that may be the red flag that says this is not the right situation for me.
Speaker B:If there's too much, frankly, in terms of risk of finances.
Speaker A:Sure, yeah.
Speaker A:Because you have to have money to survive.
Speaker A:You know, that's kind of the reality.
Speaker A:People don't live out on the plains in a log cabin somewhere.
Speaker A:So money is definitely something that is part of your security.
Speaker A:And if you want to raise children and all of that, you want security for them, you have to be able to pay to pay the bills.
Speaker A:Now, you also have considerations that you recommend people consider if they plan on marrying again.
Speaker B:So that goes back to if they plan on marrying again.
Speaker B:They need to make sure that they are protecting the property that they just probably fought for.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:And they also need to consider the age where they are and that they might already have a spousal support situation where they're supporting somebody.
Speaker B:They may have child support obligations.
Speaker B:These are all super important considerations.
Speaker B:And I hate to say it, because I sound like a broken record, but they are reasons for a prenup because you do not want to be paying spousal support your entire lifetime.
Speaker B:That is not really the object here.
Speaker B:And so if you're getting married again, if this is a second marriage for you, a prenup seems like the most logical thing to do because you may have assets that you want to protect.
Speaker B:The other person may have assets that they want to protect.
Speaker B:You may also have committed certain things in your first agreement, your divorce agreement, that have to be taken into consideration, obligations that you may have.
Speaker B:It may be unfair, for example, that the other person, the person that you're marrying has to make payments for these obligations.
Speaker B:And so these are absolutely all discussions that should be had.
Speaker A:Makes total sense.
Speaker A:Well, you know, when you think about it, marriage is a, it's a legal contract.
Speaker A:When you do anything else in life, you have to have the transparency you need to have the legal documentation.
Speaker A:It's not pleasant.
Speaker A:But to have all of that right out in front, it just simplifies things so much and it's necessary.
Speaker A:I think people don't want to think about, gee, there could be a divorce.
Speaker A:We don't want to think about those things, just like we don't want to think about people dying either.
Speaker A:But that's where you have to have the documents in place so that people are protected.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:I think it's having the eyes to see and the ears to hear what really is going on, you know, to raise your internal antenna, I guess, to say, and protect yourself.
Speaker B:Be smart about it.
Speaker B:Don't go in, you know, with the horse blinders on and thinking, oh, this is all rosy and peachy.
Speaker B:Reality is reality.
Speaker B:Life is life.
Speaker B:Things happen.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:People change, situations change.
Speaker B:And I think by going in smarter is going to be benefit yourself down the road, you know, not, not preventing yourself from, from what could be, like you said earlier, Shelley, a disastrous situation.
Speaker B:Yeah, a hundred percent.
Speaker B:Look, you know, we're grown ups, right?
Speaker B:Everybody's a grownup who's going to be getting married.
Speaker B:And we need to think like grownups.
Speaker B:And adults need to make certain decisions and they need to make provisions for their future and for the future of their loved ones.
Speaker B:And so they need to act like adults and they need to treat this very seriously.
Speaker B:This is a serious relationship partnership that you are entering into.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:So for our listeners who are not in New York State, where do they get information on all of this?
Speaker A:I mean, everybody has their own situation financially and everything else.
Speaker A:Is there a good resource maybe on the Internet?
Speaker B:So I think that you should look at.
Speaker B:Well, certainly for New York State, you can look at my blog, which is Lisa zeiderman.com But there are, in your state, wherever your listener is, there will be other blogs on other attorneys sites that they can start to read.
Speaker B:There are certainly places such as the Financial Advisor magazine that they can look at there are.
Speaker B:There is a great source, frankly.
Speaker B:I am chair of the board of an organization known as Savvy Ladies.
Speaker B:Savvy Ladies is a non for profit organization, 501C3 that has a financial helpline where women can call in free of charge, be paired with a financial professional one on one@savvyladies.org s a v v y l a d I e s.org and there is an app that you could also download for Savvy Ladies where the financial professional and you will be connected through this app and they will take your question once you've signed in and done all the paperwork so that you can actually ask your financial questions and get your financial answers.
Speaker A:Excellent.
Speaker A:How do people reach out to you, Lisa?
Speaker B:So they could contact me through my blog, Lisa Zeiderman like my name and they there is a contact form there which will go straight to my email.
Speaker B: .: Speaker A:So basically anybody with questions can just reach out.
Speaker A:You are a wealth of knowledge and I want to commend you for educating women especially.
Speaker B:Yeah, no kidding.
Speaker B:So important.
Speaker A:You know, these are topics people don't want to talk about, but if they listen at least to a podcast, perhaps they're going to be more empowered to make the right decision.
Speaker B:Well, and I appreciate that.
Speaker B:I think that it's really important that they listen to the podcast that they, you know, as I said, they can go on, for example, the Savvy Ladies blog.
Speaker B:Also there's information that's a nationwide organization and they should speak to their friends and certainly therapists and there's a wealth of knowledge of information out there and you just need to be looking and reading and making sure that you are doing and making yourself financially healthy.
Speaker A:I totally agree.
Speaker A:And knowledge that gives you empowerment and you're not going to be as desperate.
Speaker A:I mean, you don't want to do things out of desperation.
Speaker A:You need to be informed when you're going through this process.
Speaker A:And maybe it's also going to bring more women forward.
Speaker A:If they're in an abusive relationship, they've got this knowledge, they're going to have the courage to finally file for that divorce.
Speaker B:That's 100% true, without a doubt.
Speaker A:Thank you, Lisa.
Speaker A:This has been super informative.
Speaker B:Well, I really appreciate it.
Speaker B:I really appreciate both of you and you asked such great questions.
Speaker B:So I hope that it's helpful to your listeners and it should be because they were really great questions that you asked.
Speaker A:Well, thank you, Lisa.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:And I learned something.
Speaker A:I know that I went through a divorce years ago when I was very young.
Speaker A:It got messy.
Speaker A:I mean, we fought over custody of a cat.
Speaker B:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker A:It was ridiculous.
Speaker A:And I got custody, by the way.
Speaker B:I have no doubt about that.
Speaker B:It's interesting that you say that.
Speaker B:I'm just going to add.
Speaker B:You know, what's interesting about that right now is that there is now a best interest standard that is used for custody of animals.
Speaker B:Animals.
Speaker B:So while they are still considered property, they also have a much more.
Speaker B:A different standard that they.
Speaker B:That is being utilized to divide animals.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Actually, I used something like that tactic when I was talking to the mediator.
Speaker A:We had a mediator because we were so young and stuff.
Speaker A:We didn't have a bunch of acids.
Speaker A:And I basically made it clear that the cat didn't.
Speaker A:Didn't like my ex and had peed in his tennis shoes on top of it.
Speaker A:And of course, no, if that's not.
Speaker B:Proof, I don't know what is.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So thank you, Lisa.
Speaker A:This has been super helpful.
Speaker A:I really appreciate you being on our show.
Speaker B:Thank you so much and thank you for having me.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker B:Thank you.
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